E477: Sharon Carroll - "When Treats Interfere with Training"

Transcript

Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast, brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today I'll be talking to Sharon Carroll about when treats actually interfere with our training. Hi, Sharon. Welcome back to the podcast.

Sharon Carroll: Hi. Thanks for having me back again.

Melissa Breau: Absolutely. Always a pleasure. So, to start us out, do you want to just remind everybody kind of a little bit about who you are, who your current crew is, maybe what you're working on with them? Sure. So I'm a behaviour consultant, certified behaviour consultant with the IAABC. I'm a professional dog trainer. I'm on the faculty at Benzi and I have currently four dogs, which is new for me.

It's always been three until recently. So I have three standard poodles and they do lots of different sports between them. And now I have a brand new puppy that's now four and a half months old. His name's Roman and he's an Australian Kelpie. So that's been a little bit of a change in our household from these lovely quiet dogs that like to sleep all day to Roman, who's like a little ball of energy, like a little tornado running around the place, doing lots of things but having lots of fun with him.

At this stage, people keep asking, what am I working on with him? And at this stage it's really nothing but relationship building. Lots of just playing with toys, learning some good toy skills like switching toys and bringing toys back and tugging and things, and just started working with food a little bit in this last week or two. Just the basics of being able to be around food in training sessions without just obsessing over the food.

Because he is a little bit food obsessed. That would be his. Well, he really likes toys, but if there's both toys and food there, the food's going to win out for him. Interesting. And that's, I mean, a dog that's motivated is a nice thing. So. Yeah, it is, yeah. So as a school full of trainers who try to largely rely on positive methods, that does often meet a lot of food in training.

Melissa Breau: Speaking of. So most of the time for most dogs, that's probably fine. Talk to me about kind of the exceptions to that rule when it, you know, is it an issue that we're using food in our training? Yep. Well, I guess the first one that comes to mind is that mugging type behavior when someone gets the food out and the dog's just, just jumping up, snatching at the treat pouch, snatching at the person's hands, the person's getting nipped or that they're grabbing at the clothing, or they just can't think, genuinely can't think in the presence of food.

So the person's like, I just want them to offer some behaviors and they're offering nothing but jumping at the treat pouch or jumping at the hands, or the person's actually cueing them to do things, and the dog's just not able to do that at all. Not able to listen, not able to process, not able to respond. So that's the sort of things we're looking at when we're talking about those dogs that might have challenges when food's in the, in the sort of picture.

But I guess I'd still say it's often a team issue rather really than being a dog issue. Because when we really look at it, it often comes down to the fact that, yes, that dog's sole focus at that time is on getting the food, but it's really our job to help them understand how to get the food, because that's what they want and we want to show them what's something they can do that allows them to access the food.

And I think a lot of people start too big on that and they're just wanting an actual behavior and that's too much for the dog. So it often ends up being a bit of a team issue. But we also have issues where the dog's just frustrated even when they've gotten to the point where they're working with food in training, but now the dog's reverting back to these. So the dog is actually able to do some cued behaviors with food in the picture and their being rewarded with food.

But then at some point the dog's reverting back to just snatching at the food or taking off and doing zoomies, or grabbing at cones, or running around the place instead of keeping on working. And again, it's often that frustration about I really want the food. I've learned previously that I can't just snatch at the food, but I really want it and the food's in the picture and now I'm frustrated, so I'm performing other frustration based behaviors.

Melissa Breau: Yeah. So when we do have those types of dogs who like just can't think in the presence of food, is the answer to not use food in training? Is it something you can work through? Talk to me more about it.

Sharon Carroll: Yeah, I mean, a lot of people take exactly that approach. They say a dog just, I can't use food because my dog just obsesses so much about the food that we're not getting anywhere, we're not getting any training done.

Or even not just when the food's on them in the pockets or in the, in treat pouches. But they leave a treat container in the area and their dog can't leave the treat container. They can't get them to leave and move out into the training space to do a few exercises to go back to the treat container for rewards. Instead, their dog's running back to the treat container in the middle of trying to ask them to do behaviors.

Or their dog's just not even coming away from the treat container in the first place. They're just staring at it. And so in those sort of cases, people sometimes feel like they're not going to be able to work through it. And so they just say, let's not use food. Let's either use toys because we have good toy skills, or they're just using praise because maybe they've got a dog that's so work oriented that that's working fine for them.

I would say, though, it's always achievable to use food. I think where a lot of people struggle is that they just start too big. They're starting with, I want my dog to sit before I'm going to hand the food over. Or you know, my dog has to do this big. This sort of what, what I would look at as a big behavior. Now we all know probably sit doesn't seem like a big behavior, but if you've got a dog that's actually jumping up at your hands, jumping up at the treat pouch or jumping up at the table where the treat container is and you want all the way to.

I want my dog to maintain a sit stay or I want my dog to show some impulse control by maintaining a stationary behavior on a, on a platform for a period of time before I'm going to give them a treat or you know, my dog needs to. Yeah. For example, at least, you know, back well away before I'm going to give them a treat. It's too much. So we have to look for incredibly tiny behaviors.

Sometimes it's just they stop jumping up for a split second. Okay, that's good, let's do that. Maybe they looked away for a split second. Okay, that's good. Let's just reward that. And if you're then saying to yourself, well, that's all well and good, but I can't hand over food at the moment, because my dog's just going to snatch at my hand. They're going to snap at my hand.

I'm going to lose my fingers here. So I can't just reward that. They have to calm down before I reward them. Then I'd say let's just toss a treat, or let's have a treat bowl nearby that we can just drop it from a height into that treat bowl. So we can go. Just by not jumping up, oh, I tossed a treat for you. Just by looking away from it, I tossed a treat for you.

So we can start with those super simple where the dog is still a little bit worked up, is still a little bit maybe agitated, highly aroused, but we can start rewarding with the food. And at that point, the dog started to go, hang on, I can access the food. And once they're accessing the food, the frustration drops a little bit. The arousal level drops a little bit. Now you've got the potential that they'll be able to think.

Maybe they can start making associations at that point. Hey, I think it was when I stopped jumping up that the food got tossed. Or I think it was when I backed away for a moment. I think it was when I looked the other way. So they can start to form those associations. So I think it is about starting really, really small. If you're really working with one of these dogs that is so excited and so stimulated by food that they really just don't seem to be able to think or. And you can't imagine that they're going to be able to work for that food.

Melissa Breau: So you kind of, in that first question, drew like two different pictures for us, right? Like, the dog who's just, like, wants the food so bad, they just don't know how to access it. They're kind of jumping up, whatever. And then the dog with the frustration behaviors, can you kind of, I guess, paint those pictures a little more vividly for us?

Like, how are you kind of deciding which camp a dog is in from the behaviors, where those behaviors look like? Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. There's a stack of overlap. And actually, as I even started to really think more and more about this, as I was teasing all these ideas out as this podcast was coming up, and as. As I was formulating this sort of upcoming webinar, I started, initially I was like, oh, it's very clear.

There's these dogs that are mugging for food, and then there's these dogs that are perform because they're frustrated. And I'm like, hang on. Actually, they're kind of the same thing. They're just, you know. So then the line that I drew was, I said, let's talk about the dogs that have no experience yet with food. So the puppies or the dogs that are new to us, new to food type training, or the dogs where we've just never been able to use food, let's put that in one category because that is really where you are just going, okay, as soon as the dog does anything other than mug you for the food, start tossing treats, start doing a treat scatter.

So, you know, we're just rewarding just that. And then I would separately say there's the frustration scenario where we have a dog that has got to the stage where they can do some work without in the presence of food. So with us using treats, but they're getting frustrated quickly and reverting to this mugging type behavior. In those cases, I would say that what's happened often is we've escalated the requirement too quickly.

So we've gone from, okay, just, just backing away is enough, and I'll throw a treat to, oh, now I want, you know, 20 steps of heel work before I'm going to give you a treat. You know, the jump has been too big. Or even once we're well into training with a dog and we're starting to see frustration behaviors around food, then we again are still looking at, am I looking for too much duration in this behavior?

Am I looking for too many behaviors being strung together at the same time? Am I looking. Looking for too much within an off of behavior? Am I looking for the approximations that are beyond where our dog currently is? I need to be looking for a split somewhere in there so that they're not just getting frustrated. Remembering that when we say this frustration, at the moment, we're talking about those types of dogs that when they get frustrated, are reverting to snapping at the food, grabbing at the clothes, doing zoomies, getting, you know, barking at people, like barking in your face, going, give me that food.

Right now there's those type of dogs, but there's the other dogs that are. When they're getting frustrated in a food training scenario, they're actually going to quit. They're just going to go, you know what? It's too hard. I can't work out what you wanted. This doesn't make sense to me anymore. The rate of reinforcement has dropped too quickly. That specific behavior is at the point it still should be on a continuous schedule of reinforcement, and the person's dropped it to an intermittent schedule before it was ready.

All of those reasons. And instead of getting that agitated type response, instead we get a dog that's going to walk away, sniff the ground, just sort of leave completely. So yeah, I do think that frustration in training with food can be very similar to those straight out early on initial mugging type behaviors. But I do think there's a little bit of a separation there. So just kind of thinking about this topic, it kind of brought up some other things that I've heard other trainers talk about in the past and I'm kind of curious to hear your take on this.

Melissa Breau: So I've heard it said before that we have to be really careful when our dog cares so much about a reinforced, a reinforcer or particular reinforcer that you know, if we withhold it or if we're using it in training, it almost feels coercive, right? Like the dog wants it so much they feel like they can't opt out, they can't not do the thing. So when we're talking about food with these dogs who are maybe mugging the handler or jumping up or unable to think, is it, is that part of the issue here? Is that like a related thing? I just kind of want your thoughts.

Sharon Carroll: I think it's a different thing. I mean there's always going to be massive amounts of overlap, but I think that's quite a specific thing. I think we have to remember always whether we're using toys, whether we're using food, whether we're using social like praise, we have to recognize that we are a little bit manipulative when we do training.

That's kind of what happens. We are manipulating the situation and hence we are manipulating the dog to get a certain outcome and then to reward that outcome, to try and get more of that outcome. I mean, we have to recognize that we are manipulating the situation. I think though it does come down in the sort of thing you're talking about there to us really recognizing how much we already control a lot of our dogs lives.

We control when they eat, where they eat, what they get to eat, how much they get to eat, when they go for a drive, when they get to leave the property, where they sleep, what they do. We control everything. So then when we're also going and we're going to control the food like, or we're going to control your access to all the toys, we have to go. There's a point here where we have to also be fair.

We're in a position of power. And just as we would be in a human scenario, if you're in a position of power over another entity or another individual, you have to use that power in a very fair way. And so I think we always have to be aware that just because we have a dog that, for example, wants a toy so badly that they will do anything for it doesn't mean that we really should be using that to just not care about how we train and just go, well, it doesn't matter how frustrated they get, they're going to keep pushing through that frustration anyway because they so badly want the thing.

And that's not a great trainer that's doing that. And I would say the same with food. Even if you have a dog that really, really is. Has such what we call a huge food drive, but a huge motivation to access food, we don't want to do that, use that then in such a way that we're. We are coercive. We're sort of just going, well, we don't care how frustrated they get.

We're going to push on to get what we want. And, you know, we're. And for me personally, this even extends, and I understand this is probably a contentious issue for a lot of people, but extends to the fact that I personally still deliver meals to my dog. They might be very small if I've used most of the food in training, but they do get meals that are not contingent upon work.

Now, again, if we have a dog that just loves work and we're using all of the diet in the work, but we're doing that training in a really fair way where they're not frustrated very often and they're enjoying the work anyway, that's okay. But I see a lot of trainers that potentially are not aware that their dog's more frustrated than they think and their dog's not enjoying themselves the whole time in the training session, but yet that person still choosing to only use food, like only deliver all the dog's food as part of training sessions.

And in those cases, again, I think it does come back to that coercion thing you spoke of, where we just have to be aware, you know, how do we rate our skills? Are we that good a trainer that our dog is not being coerced to do things they're not feeling comfortable doing? Are we that good a trainer that our dog's not getting overly frustrated in order to access those things?

And, yeah, just constantly reassess ourselves and make sure we're not being coercive with our training? But to me, I would think of that as being slightly different to just these dogs that don't yet know how to access food or we haven't, we just haven't built that skill set for them yet. They don't know how to not mug you for the food, they want the food, they just mug you.

They don't have another alternative, they don't yet know how to do it. Which is potentially a little different to those dogs that we see with toys that are what we may call they show addictive like qualities. And I know there was a study last year and I'd love to credit the researcher and the institute, but I really don't know off the top of my head who that was, but it was something about addictive like behaviors in dogs when it comes to toys and sort of recognizing that different that that similarity between human addiction and the behaviours we see with these dogs that are what we would call toy obsessed or have a high drive, high interest in toys, highly motivated to access toys where they actually crave that toy.

Like they have this strong motivation to obtain it and they are strongly motivated to interact with the toy and that it's so important to them that they would do it to the exclusion of other things they would actually not eat just to guard their toy. You know, that's not a healthy sort of way of being or that they would do something dangerous or something that they're actually uncomfortable, fearful about doing.

But they do it just to access their toy. Again, that's not healthy behavior and that they just lack self control. They genuinely have difficulty managing themselves in the presence of that stimulus. In those sort of cases we would consider it to be, yeah, potentially addictive like behavior. And that would place even more importance on us as handlers to manage that situation very carefully and not be tempted to be coercive and to ask our dog to do something that they consider unpleasant or uncomfortable or that makes them fearful just in order to access that thing that they really want.

Yeah, you were talking about, you know, young dogs being kind of the ones who fall into this category and I'd love to talk a bit about preventing this stuff. So like, are these issues that, you know, when we're introducing food to training initially we can prevent just by how we do that? Or is this one of those like genetic things where it's probably part of the package you got with the dog and you just know that you're going to maybe have to work through it kind of thing.

Look, some parts are going to be, have some genetic component how, how much that dog values food that's going to have a strong genetic component. So we know that there's some dogs that could eat all day long genuinely and still look like they're starving. And then there's other dogs that are like, they eat a small meal once a day and the rest of the time they're like, food.

I could take it or leave it. Like if you're handing it over, I'd probably take it if I have to work for it. Not that interested because they're just not that motivated and there is a big genetic component in amongst that. But in terms of can we do stuff to prevent this, I would say it's not so much that as what we can do is prevent unwanted behaviors from becoming established.

So we don't want to reinforce things that we don't want. So if we go out to do training with our dog and our dog's mugging us and in the end we just, whilst they're actively mugging us, we're just scattering the treats on the ground and walking away. Probably going to get more mugging in the future. You know, it's. And, and if we. Or if we're in any way.

In fact, one of the things that I often discuss too is just that whole blocking it idea. The idea of blocking it, the idea of trying to stop, prevent the dog from getting it, even that can backfire because now you've got a dog that's more frustrated and if they're more frustrated, they're potentially going to do more of the behaviours we don't want. And so, yeah, it's just recognizing that we can do things that can make these things, these behaviours more established, things that we don't.

Behaviours we don't want to see can become more established if we aren't aware of the behaviours we're potentially creating along the way. So I would say it's a good idea to straightaway have food used in training, even if it's something you don't want to necessarily use all the time. I'd be saying get out there, do a little bit, start super simple, make sure that our dog has behaviors that are useful for us so that they do know that they can back away a little bit, they're going to get fed, they can stop jumping up on us, they're going to get fed.

Eventually they're going to start to think. So then they can start performing little behaviors and we can feed them. So we start to establish that idea for them that they can do things to access the food and it can start really simple. So we can do those sort of things. So it's a matter of not reinforcing behaviours we don't want and it's a matter of trying to guide towards more of the behaviors we do want.

And even on that one, simple as I start working with food containers in the area right from day one with puppies, and it might even be just empty clip lock containers to start with. But I'm just doing my toy play and I'm doing my treat tosses back and forth and stuff with treat containers. And if they want to go over and explore them, have a sniff, roll them around, they can.

They're not getting anything out of it, so it doesn't matter. And then they. They just. And so they're just used to having those around. They're the sort of things you can do to prevent the obsession with treat containers later on. Because you can build from that to having something a bit boring in there, have it initially not vented, but eventually have something boring in there, but with holes in it, have eventually build to having more and more yummy sort of things in there at different distances.

But all the while all we're doing is just playing in the area and eventually the dogs just become oblivious to those containers being there. Whereas if you always go out with your one treat container and it has all the food in it and you put it on the bench and you keep returning to it to just keep feeding from it, you've now added a lot of salience to that item.

So, yeah, you can do lots of things to prevent those obsessions, like obsessively not wanting to leave a treat container. You can do that early on as well by just those. That habit forming, by having those boring containers around while you're working.

Melissa Breau: So I think we've talked, you know, a fair bit now about the dogs who can't work when food is in the picture. But what about the dogs who, like, won't work unless food is in the picture? So what does that look like kind of behaviorally? And how do we teach them? We need you to do the behavior first and trust us to reinforce you even if you can't see the goods in advance.

Sharon Carroll: Yeah, yeah. There's actually so many different things that happens in that category. Like as you were asking that, then straight away I flicked sort of two or three different scenarios. You've got the dogs where just the presence of the food is what actually creates the activation in them to start guessing, to start following the food around, which then leads to them performing behaviors.

So then we go, oh, our dog knows such and such. No they don't. No they don't. It's just you happen to have food that went, that made them go, I should try things now. And then they start doing things and because you had one prop there, they guessed that was probably the thing. So then you fed them for it and you're like, yeah, my dog knows that. No, that's not what happened.

So you've got those sort of scenarios. You've also got scenarios where the law or the reverse law or the pre placed food item is generating the behaviour. Now if something's actually generating the behaviour, it's not even ready to like, it's not being reinforced yet. That's just generating the behaviour. So food that's present before a behaviour occurs isn't reinforcement, it's generating the behavior. Then the food you give afterwards is a reinforcement.

Now unless you can find another way to generate that behavior, then you're going to have a sticky situation. And one example I see all the time is when people pre place, say a treat and train or a food bowl at the end of a run of straight jumps, four jumps in a row or something in a food bowl at the end and they go, okay, I've done this for a while.

My dog knows forward focus now, well let's take the food container away and see. No they don't. Because what was happening was the dog was looking at the food, they were looking at the food container, the dish or the treatment train and running down the line of jumps. Now people can convince themselves my dog knows how to run down a straight line of jumps and stay with forward focus, not realizing that at that point the prompt is what generated the behavior.

And so, and that's why you quite quickly have to move to. Instead, can my dog go forward over the jump and then me toss a treat overhead or toss a toy overhead rather than them running to the pre placed toy or the pre placed food. Because that's what starts to bridge that gap between generating the behavior, having the behavior occur, and then reinforcing the behavior. And until while ever we have food in the picture in that generating phase, you know, we're not close to ready to.

And people often still have the food in that. And then start reducing reinforcement. I'm like, hang on, hang on. You can't start reducing reinforcement until the behavior occurs on cue without food being present before the behavior occurs. So when something like a law, okay, we can just fade the law, you know, we're initially teaching a spin. We have the food in our hand. We get the spin and we deliver the food.

Just do a rep without food in our hand, but have our hand look as though we've got food in it. And we do the spin and then we quickly give them food from the other hand. Do a few reps of that. They start to go, oh, if I follow an empty hand, I still get food. Okay, this works. And then eventually they're following the hand and then they obviously know there's no food in it.

And then you might put that on a signal. You know, if it's a down, you might have a down signal where you don't have food. Or you might be adding a verbal anyway, where you add the verbal and then give the signal. And then eventually they're doing it from the verbal only. But it's that process of getting off the law. And I would say reverse luring is just as sticky.

People sort of don't realize that they have that one bit of food in their hand and their dog can do these great stays or it can do lots of focus. And then, oh, what happens when they don't have that? And so it's just recognizing that all of those things have a place they're really valuable. I do a lot of luring, no problem there. But you've got to move on from it.

You've got to move. You've got to have a strategy for moving on from it. And. Yeah, and identifying any time the food's generating the behavior, whether that's just the presence of food activates the dog and then they start guessing. Then you get some of the right stuff and you give them reward, but you think they're doing. You think they know more than they know, or whether it's a prompt that's actually generating the behaviour.

So there's lots of things. And I mean, I'm thinking about more things there even in that question as well. But, yeah, there are lots of ways that dogs can look like they know a behavior before they know a behavior. Then the person goes, why doesn't my dog perform this behavior on cue when the food's not present? Then the people say, my dog just knows when there's no food around and he doesn't want to work when there's no food.

It's like, you know, often it's a misunderstanding or that the food itself has formed part of a cue to get that behavior to occur. And so we have to stop and really assess it ourselves and say, what? Part of this picture is what tells our dog to do the behavior and get to the Point where it can happen without the food in the pitcher. But then be quick to reward immediately afterwards and stay on that continuous schedule of reinforcement for. For a period of time after that. Don't be quick to get onto reduced reinforcement when you've only just faded the lure, for example, or just got the prompt out of the picture.

Melissa Breau: Yeah, I will say I've definitely gotten myself into the reverse luring situation when working stand stay with my English cockers. So I definitely understand sometimes that creates the behavior and then you try to get rid of it and it's like, wait a minute, you don't know that as well as I thought.

Sharon Carroll: Yeah. And then the thing is, with lures, with normal luring, like luring a spin or luring around you, I think people are really aware of the need to fade it fairly quickly before it does become part of, you know, where you can't get away from it. But the reverse law, I think people leave in the picture for a long while. They don't go, oh, I just need it for that early phase just to get that first split second of stillness and then I can reward, okay, now I've got to get it out of the picture.

They're like, oh, no, look, my dog could do a whole one minute stay with my. Okay, yeah, with that there. Because it creates a focal point which is no different to a dog looking forward over a set of jumps to that focal point. It creates that focal point that gets the stillness.

Melissa Breau: Yeah. So for those dogs who maybe they left something in the picture too long or they've kind of gotten to this place where it feels like they won't do the work unless they see the goods, you know, is it still possible to get to the point we need for like, competition where the food only comes out after a whole chain of behaviors?

And I do recognize this is like a huge topic. It could be its own hour long presentation, but, you know, kind of the short version, what's an overview of that process look like? Like, get from, okay, I'm stuck to okay, I'm not. Maybe not stuck anymore.

Sharon Carroll: Yeah, I mean, the first point is not rushing. And I think that's what happens because often people have created all these really cool behaviors.

The dog could do all these different tricks or all these different exercises for rally, for example, providing the person's carrying treats in their hand or that they've got treats on them and then they want to quickly go to. But I want to go in the ring now and do all those behaviors without. It's like, okay, there's a little bit of a ground sort of to cover between there and there.

We have to initially get to the point where we genuinely can leave food on a table, walk away from that food. Our dog actually be able to focus on, not have split focus, where they're still mainly thinking about the treat container and sort of partly thinking about us, but can actually head out there, do the thing. And for that reason, one of the things I often recommend is when you first start using treat containers and leaving treat containers, remote food, is to still have treats in your pocket.

I actually like my dogs to actually not obsess over the treat container. If you're always going back to it and that's the only place the food comes from, it's hard for them to leave that. And so I do like two container games where we run from one container and get a treat, run to the other one and get a treat. And I also do games where we actually leave the treat container.

And if that means me just feed, feed, feed, feed as I walk away from the treat container, that's what we do. Or we build obviously to stage where we can leave it, have a treat and go back, we can leave it and then we can get a behavior and go back. So that just leaving the treat container out of the competition area, that's a whole skill set all of its own that needs building.

And so we build that really incrementally. We build in the process. Not that they specifically understand that they have to keep going with you until they get back to there, but that food might come from other places. Maybe I've still got it in my pocket. Maybe it's on a container they don't even know about on the other side of the ring. So that it's not the only place that it's going to to be.

And I know other people have different strategies and there is no one right answer here. Yeah. What I would say though is once you've built all these skills, then it doesn't matter because, like, for my dogs, they absolutely know when I go in a competition, there's one treat container, it's outside the ring, they know when I've left it there, they know when they go in there, there's going to be no treats.

I mean, this is just something they learn through experience. But I haven't done that to them as a trick. It's not like they're getting food, food, food, food, food all the time in training. And then one day I left it out of the ring and just went in and did a whole Obedience run or a whole rally band, because that would cause a very shaky performance and you'd actually get a less motivated dog the next time and the next time and the next time.

And then they start running out of the ring and going to treat containers or just quitting on you because they're confused about what's happening. So I think it's a matter of building up that mental stamina to be able to do the whole amount of work needed and to do that incrementally and separately build the skills for working away from treat containers. So I think of them as two separate things.

So can our dog do all of the skills required separately? Independent piece. So they have to be able to do all those confidently without food and then separately, can we chain as much time as we need together to be in the ring without food and our dog's comfortable and separately, can we at any point in time walk away from treat containers and have a focused and engaged dog?

So they're all separate skills that I want to put in place. The one thing I would say, because I work with dogs that are very. They're a bit sensitive, more to the point, they're not highly motivated to do the work. They don't find the work itself intrinsically reinforcing. My particular poodles, the lines they're from, they're not driven to work, so they don't find retrieving innately reinforcing. They don't find running and jumping innately reinforcing.

One of mine would never raise more than a trot if he was left to his own device. Like, the idea of cantering is like, you know, he just, he's happy, he's a happy dog, but he's just not an athletic dog. And so to get a recall that actually has a cantor in it, that's a high effort exercise. Whereas for a lot of dogs, like, yeah, I want to run, I want to do a go out, I want to jump a thing.

He's like, not so much. And so working with those sorts of dogs, I don't what I was getting to and why it relates to the question. I don't routinely work for long periods of time without food with these dogs. If you saw me in a regular training session, I'm handing out food left, right and center. There's food coming out of my pockets, there's food coming out of treat contains.

They're getting fed all the time. And I think it probably surprises some people that watch me regularly in training that my dogs go in and stay so focused in the ring for all that time without getting food. But they don't realize the pieces that have gone into that. They know every one of those exercises so solidly, they can do it without rewards, no problem at all. They're not flustered by the fact that they don't get a reward afterwards and they can do the amount of time required.

And again, I think of it like a marathon runner. I've said this numerous times before. A marathon runner does not go out and run a marathon every day just to prove they can run the whole distance. So I don't go out and ask my dog to do a whole rally course every time I'm doing rally because I want to prove that he can do the whole thing without treats.

No. If you saw me, most of the time, I'm rewarding at every station, every second station, sometimes every fifth station, Sometimes I do a whole course. And that's the thing. It's like, it's not surprising to them when they have to do a whole course without food. But if I did a whole course without food, very often with them, their motivation and effort would drop, because that's the type of dogs they are.

Now, if they really loved working. Different type of dog, maybe my Kelpie's gonna. Well, I can tell you now, my Kelpie's already very different. He just likes using his body. He likes throwing himself around. He likes doing position. Position change. He likes jumping around. It's a different sort of dog. He's going to love work because he likes moving, which. Yeah, anyway, that was my short answer. That was my. That was my short answer.

Melissa Breau: Fair enough. Okay. So part of the reason we're talking about all this stuff is because you do have a webinar coming up on, you know, when food's a problem. So it's scheduled for September 17th. Can you talk a little more about the webinar, maybe who might want to sign up, what you're going to cover?

Sharon Carroll: Sure. I've sort of combined everything to do with food in training in one place.

And that's because there is a lot of overlap, huge amount of overlap between all of the different issues. And also because I think those people that are out there themselves as instructors at clubs or out there as trainers, it's nice to go to one place and see all the different issues for something discussed in one place. So I have included everything. So it means that some parts might be less relevant to individual people than other parts, But I think everybody will get a stack of information out of it.

So the first part I'm going to cover is those dogs that can't think effectively in the presence of food, so can't respond accurately at any time the handler's got treats or can't reliably work when food or treat containers are nearby, or when someone's eating nearby or you know, there's any food in the environment. And then I'm going to go on and talk about dogs that are displaying frustration when food's used in training sessions.

So they're repeatedly reverting to the barking or the snatching at food or the nipping, performing zoomies, grabbing things, running off, cycling through previously reinforced behaviors because they don't know what else to do when they really want to get the food. Or those ones that are losing interest in trying to earn the food because it's become frustrating and confusing and they don't know what to do, so they walk away or they sniff the ground or they just return to their bed or their mat or their crate.

I'm going to also talk about those dogs that only work when the food's visible or when it's acting as a prompt or a law or reverse law. So those dogs that need proof that food's available before they do it, or what, what appears to us like they need proof that it's available. And also those dogs that perform the behaviour when there's a prompt present, like a pre placed dish or treat container, but not when it's not.

And also those that can follow the law, but that people haven't progressed beyond that point, the dog still needs that law to actually get the behaviour to happen. So we're going to look at that and then we also are going to look at those dogs that can't eat in certain contexts or situations or environments. And so although that may seem different to the rest, like we can see lots of overlap in the rest of that content.

And we look at that and go, isn't that a different sort of scenario? It can be when we're looking at those dogs that it's. That it's happening for a negative reason. So the dog's needing to confirm safety. So maybe at home they're fine, but they go out and about and they're feeling a bit anxious or nervous or uncomfortable, fearful and. And now they're not able to eat. But we also do have dogs that are not able to eat when they're out and about.

And it's for an entirely different reason. And that can be that there's just something more interesting in the environment. Maybe they don't have a huge food drive. Maybe they're a lower food drive dog. And while they're at home and things are a bit boring. Yep, they'll take the food. When they're out and about, they're like, you know what? Actually just watching those dogs over there is more interesting.

Or sniffing the ground's more. More interesting. I don't want your food. I'm not interested. I've got. I'm busy. I've got other things to do. And so there is some overlap between that and those dogs that gets frustrated. Because again, when it comes back to the work, if we can make the work more rewarding, if we can make it more clear, then often those dogs will switch on to the work once we've done a good acclimation.

Whereas, yeah, if we're not recognizing why they're switching off the food, then we can. We can again get back to what we're saying at the start, where people just stop using food, stop trying to use food, or they try to teach their dog to eat on cue. And I probably shouldn't even bring this one up in this because this was like, no doubt. This is a contentious issue.

I know it is. In fact, I think at the last Fenzi camp, Denise and I had a discussion on one of the panels about it where I said, you know, I get it. And I know there's quite a few people, instructors, including some fenty instructors, that really do like to teach a dog to just eat on cue, regardless of where they are, regardless of what's happening. If I hand you food, just eat it.

And for me, because I work with so many of the more sensitive dogs, the more anxious, more nervous dogs, I don't love that concept. And the reason I don't love it is because for me, the dog rejecting food or eating food in a different way, eating it slower, chewing it slowly, chipmunking it into their cheek pouch, like, spitting it out after taking it. That's a heap of information that I love to have.

Like, I love that information. If I get to somewhere and open the door and a dog's looking at me and can't eat, that's information I want. I don't actually want them to have that habit of like, sure, you present, you presented food, I eat, whatever, because. And I think this is where it gets. It can get so subtle and so complex. If I open the door and my dog's like, I can't think at the moment.

This is just so stimulating. Even looking out here is just so exciting then. And that's why they're not eating. That doesn't mean I'm going to go, oh, okay, and just bring them out anyway. But there's. To me, there's a difference between going, hey, I'd love for you to be able to eat before you get out of this car, but I want you to change. I want your emotional state, your physiological state to change to the point where you can eat, and then I'm going to get you out the car, which to me is different to, I just want to see you eat before you get out the car.

You know, and it's a sort of subtle difference because in both cases we want to see our dog eat before they get out the car. But I have. But. But to me, it's that I actually want to do whatever it takes to have that dog reach a place where they're choosing to eat, they're able to eat before I get them out, because I don't want them out if they can't eat.

I don't necessarily want them out the car. They can't think, they can't process, they're not able to, you know, respond to me necessarily. That's not a good thing. But just having them eat on cue doesn't necessarily change that mindset or that emotional place. And so what happens then is we hand them food, they eat, they get out, they still can't think and still can't respond, respond to your cues.

And I've seen that. I've seen dogs, I've seen people go, oh, no, I've taught my dog, look, every time I open the door, it can eat. And I'm like, huh? And now it gets out and still can't. Yeah, it can eat. Every time you hand it a treat, it eats, but it still can't sit when you ask it to because it hasn't reached that place. And so whilst I think, obviously if you've got a dog that needs nutrition, you know, some of the dogs that really genetically are not, they just don't have a drive to eat.

And you are struggling to get nutrition into them. I do think teaching a dog to eat on cue in those cases is really necessary and, you know, for some medical conditions. But in terms of just eating, because I tell you to eat when you're out and about, yes, swallowing food does lower arousal. So yes, eating should theoretically lower arousal, but that's if they're actually eating, as in taking it and eating, not just grabbing it and swallowing it because you said too much.

And so if you've got a dog that reaches a point where they're able to eat. They're eating a treat. Scatter off the ground. They're able to eat. They're actually chewing. They're looking at you. They're processing. Then, yes, that food will help. Swallowing that food will help to lower arousal, bring them back to a place where they're even in a better thinking place. But if all they're doing is just grab the food, swallow, grab the food, swallow, you won't get the lowering of arousal effect that you will from eating.

When we say that eating always lowers arousal, it doesn't. If they're just grabbing and swallowing mindlessly because you said they had to, they're still looking at that thing over there, like, yeah, sure, whatever. Yep. Yeah, I'm eating. Yeah. Like, so to me, as a behavior person, there's that huge difference between eating because they're just eating because they got told to and eating because they feel okay to eat.

And even though it may look exactly the same to a lot of people, where it's like, either you can't get out of the car until you can eat something, or I'm going to have you on this station outside of the car and you're not to leave that station. We're not going for a walk until you can eat. It's that difference of, how did we get there? To me, it's like, yeah, I want you to stay there and I'm going to give you slow strokes and I'm going to talk to you and I'm going to let you look around and process for as long as you need.

And once I see you take that picture, sigh. And now I can see you. Your eyes are not, you know, glazed over anymore. And now you can eat. Well, now you're eating and that's good. And now we can go off into the environment versus me just wanting to see you eat, because that makes me feel like, oh, well, you can eat, so all is okay. And now we can leave off into the environment.

Yeah. Probably didn't need to go down that rabbit hole. That's all right. But, yeah, it does relate to the topic.

Melissa Breau: Yeah. Awesome. Cool. So for people that are interested in the webinar, it's again, September 17th is when that's happening. And I think that's all my notes. So thank you so much, Sharon, for coming on the podcast. This has been a conversation and hopefully really helpful for lots of folks.

Sharon Carroll: Yeah. Thank you for having me again. Absolutely. And thanks to our listeners and our viewers for tuning in. We'll be back next week, this time with Michael Shikashio. To talk about the upcoming Canis Conference. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast either on itunes, the podcast app of your choice, or over on YouTube to make sure you never miss an episode. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy.

Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by BenSound.com the track featured here is called Buddy. Audio and video editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.

Credits

Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called "Buddy." Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!